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in the news; -much of it bad
Topic Started: Dec 1 2009, 11:21 AM (115 Views)
Dominic Guglieme
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Well, the US has topped 10% unemployment. Remember, the way unemployment is calculated is based on who is collecting benefits. So, the real number of jobless/under-employed is actually higher. And, in some states, the official number has been over 10% for some time now.


And, Dubai (a beacon of hope in the Middle East), is collapsing economically. They have spent much of the last decade trying to build up and diversify their economy. Had they more time, they might have succeeded. Now, we have the potential for another failed state in a region already littered wth them.

Dom
-this is looking more like the early 1900s every day.

Keep it local.


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It's all due to greed and politics. I wish I had something more inspiring and intelligent to say, but that's really it.

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Dominic Guglieme
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The thing is, not all of this is due to greed. Dubai was, sensibly, trying to modernize. If it was only greed that was causing all of these problems, there are plenty of kleptocracies in the region that would have collapsed long ago.

And, I just talked to a client. She, and over 100 other people are losing their jobs because their company is going to China. (That *is* greed.)


Dom
-really does not want to see the early 1900s replay.


Keep it local.


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andersonh1
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Part of it is greed, or the desire to make a higher profit, which up to a point is what a business is supposed to do. But between unions and one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, it's little wonder companies are moving overseas. It's become far more expensive to do business here in the United States than it is to do business overseas. Our government can and should change that.

It's been hard on the south, where I live. Textiles are long gone, and they were once the life blood of the region. There are still empty textile plants here and there, and run down old mill villages. The south adapated, but it was hard for awhile.
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I'm not saying Dubai was greedy, don't get me wrong. While in the Navy, I took many port stops in Dubai and they were some of the best we had. The people there treated us like kings!! When I mentioned greed, I was refering to the vendors and corporations they brought in to help with their build-up. Alot of those were American companies as well as others, and it was their inherent greed I was refering to that is ruining Dubai, not to mention the rest of the world.

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gijoe071681
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andersonh1
Dec 1 2009, 09:35 PM
Part of it is greed, or the desire to make a higher profit, which up to a point is what a business is supposed to do. But between unions and one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, it's little wonder companies are moving overseas. It's become far more expensive to do business here in the United States than it is to do business overseas. Our government can and should change that.

I believe you to be correct. A higher profit is the goal of capitalism, but I feel that if you export your jobs to another country then by all means your product shouldn't be sold here. Or in the case of a product being made elsewhere or shipped to be assembled elseware, then an import tax should be imposed equal to the amount you are saving by send jobs elsewhere. I believe that if we make it not profitable to send jobs elsewhere than they wo't be sent elsewhere.
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Dominic Guglieme
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andersonh1
Dec 1 2009, 09:35 PM
Part of it is greed, or the desire to make a higher profit, which up to a point is what a business is supposed to do. But between unions and one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, it's little wonder companies are moving overseas. It's become far more expensive to do business here in the United States than it is to do business overseas. Our government can and should change that.

It's been hard on the south, where I live. Textiles are long gone, and they were once the life blood of the region. There are still empty textile plants here and there, and run down old mill villages. The south adapated, but it was hard for awhile.
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I believe you to be correct. A higher profit is the goal of capitalism, but I feel that if you export your jobs to another country then by all means your product shouldn't be sold here.


The problem is that too many companies are forgetting Henry Ford's (pretty basic) idea that the workers need to be able to afford the car.


Anderson, I am suprised that you of all people are calling for regulation. (I am not against it, but from Anderson the call is suprising. Of course, it is, in the long term a call for deregulation, so it makes sense in that way.)

The other problem is that we have a consumer based economy, not a production based economy. We do not make anything, so much of what we do involves spending rather than creating wealth.
Keep it local.


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andersonh1
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Dominic Guglieme
Dec 2 2009, 07:00 PM
andersonh1
Dec 1 2009, 09:35 PM
Part of it is greed, or the desire to make a higher profit, which up to a point is what a business is supposed to do. But between unions and one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, it's little wonder companies are moving overseas. It's become far more expensive to do business here in the United States than it is to do business overseas. Our government can and should change that.

It's been hard on the south, where I live. Textiles are long gone, and they were once the life blood of the region. There are still empty textile plants here and there, and run down old mill villages. The south adapated, but it was hard for awhile.
Quote:
 
I believe you to be correct. A higher profit is the goal of capitalism, but I feel that if you export your jobs to another country then by all means your product shouldn't be sold here.


The problem is that too many companies are forgetting Henry Ford's (pretty basic) idea that the workers need to be able to afford the car.


Anderson, I am suprised that you of all people are calling for regulation. (I am not against it, but from Anderson the call is suprising. Of course, it is, in the long term a call for deregulation, so it makes sense in that way.)

The other problem is that we have a consumer based economy, not a production based economy. We do not make anything, so much of what we do involves spending rather than creating wealth.
You misunderstand me. I'm not calling for the government to regulate business and force them to remain, or anything along those lines. They ought to cut taxes, and generally make it less onerous to do business here in the United States. We'd see less flight overseas if that happened. It wouldn't stop it all, but it would help considerably.
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Dominic Guglieme
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I understand what you were saying. But, it looked stranged to see a conservative say "the goverment should do something".

The problem is that the cost is just going to be lower over-seas. Cutting the costs here would mean cutting workers wages, or creating conditions that most American workers would find unacceptable.
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Dominic Guglieme
Dec 3 2009, 10:27 AM


The problem is that the cost is just going to be lower over-seas.
Exactly. Which is why I feel that lowering the companies taxes isn't the answer. You lower the taxes, they are just making more money because they have exported the jobs and are still paying less to make the products, so why would they keep the jobs here? I think the appropriate way to deal with it is to punish the wrong (exporting jobs ) not reward the right (keeping jobs). You are generally expected to do right without a reward. So basically I say raise the tariffs and taxes to make it unprofitable to export the jobs.
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andersonh1
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gijoe071681
Dec 5 2009, 02:30 PM
Dominic Guglieme
Dec 3 2009, 10:27 AM


The problem is that the cost is just going to be lower over-seas.
Exactly. Which is why I feel that lowering the companies taxes isn't the answer. You lower the taxes, they are just making more money because they have exported the jobs and are still paying less to make the products, so why would they keep the jobs here? I think the appropriate way to deal with it is to punish the wrong (exporting jobs ) not reward the right (keeping jobs). You are generally expected to do right without a reward. So basically I say raise the tariffs and taxes to make it unprofitable to export the jobs.
Then you get into a trade war. Bush tried tariffs with steel at one point, and that didn't go well. Obama wanted to put tariffs on something from China earlier this year, and that didn't go well.

You can't just use a negative approach and throw penalties at businesses. There have to be incentives as well. Maybe a substantial tax cut for those who hire and build in the United States, that isn't available to companies who take their business overseas. Something along those lines.

Dom, I get what you're saying about what I said. Just remember, Conservatives believe in small government, not no goverment. We're not libertarians. :lol:
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andersonh1
Dec 5 2009, 02:52 PM
gijoe071681
Dec 5 2009, 02:30 PM
Dominic Guglieme
Dec 3 2009, 10:27 AM


The problem is that the cost is just going to be lower over-seas.
Exactly. Which is why I feel that lowering the companies taxes isn't the answer. You lower the taxes, they are just making more money because they have exported the jobs and are still paying less to make the products, so why would they keep the jobs here? I think the appropriate way to deal with it is to punish the wrong (exporting jobs ) not reward the right (keeping jobs). You are generally expected to do right without a reward. So basically I say raise the tariffs and taxes to make it unprofitable to export the jobs.


You can't just use a negative approach and throw penalties at businesses. There have to be incentives as well. Maybe a substantial tax cut for those who hire and build in the United States, that isn't available to companies who take their business overseas. Something along those lines.

I see your point, so I propose that there be a middle ground. There can be substantial tax breaks for businesses that hire and manufacture in the U.S.. However in order to offset these tax breaks I suggest raising tariffs and taxes on those companies that do export jobs. This way as you stated we are rewarding the right AND punishing the wrong.
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Dominic Guglieme
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Of course, there is another problem with raising tariffs or keeping jobs in the US. Doing either of those things will push the prices of most goods beyond what many consumers are able, or simply willing, to pay.

And, given that consumption is such a huge part of our economy, that could prove to be terrible. Think about it this way, if you work in a support industry for retail, (shipping, or credit), you would be impacted.

Dom
-is amazed that November is being considered a win simply for not being as bad as previous months.

Keep it local.


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Dominic Guglieme
Dec 7 2009, 03:54 PM
Of course, there is another problem with raising tariffs or keeping jobs in the US. Doing either of those things will push the prices of most goods beyond what many consumers are able, or simply willing, to pay.

And, given that consumption is such a huge part of our economy, that could prove to be terrible. Think about it this way, if you work in a support industry for retail, (shipping, or credit), you would be impacted.

Dom
-is amazed that November is being considered a win simply for not being as bad as previous months.

That could be a good thing though as well Dom. Think about it, if you are a company that has decided to export your jobs oversseas (by this I mean an American company that has manufactured here) and you must pay high tariffs and taxes, PLUS your goods aren't selling due to price, wouldn't that be a fairly good incentive to keep America working? Basically if you make it here the American people can afford it (due to tax breaks) and they will buy it (as they will be working). Also I support the idea of if you want to sell it here make it here. (referring to foreign companies)
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If we really want to save the US economy everybody needs to stop buying toys made in other countries (pause) uh, nevermind!
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